תנו רבנן מעשה באנשי גליל העליון שלקחו לעני בן טובים אחד מציפורי ליטרא
בשר בכל יום ליטרא בשר מאי רבותא אמר רב הונא ליטרא בשר משל עופות ואיבעית
אימא בליטרא בשר ממש רב אשי אמר התם כפר קטן היה בכל יומא הוה מפסדי חיותא
אמטולתיה: ההוא דאתא לקמיה דרבי נחמיה אמר ליה במה אתה סועד א"ל בבשר שמן
ויין ישן רצונך שתגלגל עמי בעדשים גלגל עמו בעדשים ומת אמר אוי לו לזה
שהרגו נחמיה אדרבה אוי לו לנחמיה שהרגו לזה מיבעי ליה אלא איהו הוא דלא
איבעי ליה לפנוקי נפשיה כולי האי
Our
Rabbis taught: It once happened that the people of Upper Galilee bought
for a poor member of a good family of Sepphoris a pound of meat every
day. 'A pound of meat'! What is the greatness in this? — R. Huna
replied: [It was] a pound of fowl's meat. And if you prefer I might say:
[They purchased] ordinary meat for a pound [of money]. R. Ashi replied:
The place was a small village and everyday a beast had to be spoiled
for his sake.
A certain man once applied to R. Nehemiah [for maintenance]. 'What do your meals consist of', [the Rabbi] asked him. 'Of fat meat and old wine', the other replied — 'Will you consent [the Rabbi asked him] to live with me on lentils?' [The other consented,] lived with him on lentils and died. 'Alas', [the Rabbi] said, 'for this man whom Nehemiah has killed.' On the contrary, he should [have said] 'Alas for Nehemiah who killed this man'! — [The fact], however, [is that the man himself was to blame, for] he should not have cultivated his luxurious habits to such an extent.
What is the standard of living which society must provide for its poor? Are we obligated to provide for a needy person at the standard they are accustomed? If you became suddenly poor, how would you expect to be provided for?
Rachel Comment#3
ReplyDeleteThe first story about how the people in Upper Galilee gave a pound of meat to a poor family, is quite admirable. My thoughts on this, is that people can be very generous, but they don't have to be. I think its pretty amazing what they did, and its extremely generous, but just because they did that, doesn't mean we have to. A lot of people in todays society, and back then, can barely afford a meal for themselves, and if they had to afford for others, it wouldn't be fair. Giving back is amazing, but it shouldn't be an obligation.
Addressing the last question, if I were poor, I don't know what I would expect. Now, I am not in a state of poverty, so I probably think differently now then I would if I actually come to be poor. From my point of view, I wouldn't be expecting anything from anyone, because I probably led myself to get into that state of poverty. I realize that I seem a little insensitive from this comment, but I think that most people who are poor, lead themselves into that direction. However, if I were actually poor, I might think differently. I might be thinking about how I need the help, because poverty is difficult to live through.
This question makes me think about how I would feel, because poverty is a very scary thing. As a girl who has grown up with a plate full of food, and a closet full of clothes, it makes me realize how I would feel without these essentials. I think the torahs goal in this text is two things. The obvious one, is to give Tzedekah. However, I think the other one is not to take things for granted. And thats how I felt when I read this, that I should stop taking things for granted.
Going back to the first question, a community must stay together. They don't have the obligation to give money, they have the obligation of being there for one another. It would be generous, but that doesn't mean all communities must do it.Part of our school, is that we are a community. We don't give money to each other, we give life-long friendships, and to me, thats a definition of a true community.
Mia Comment #4
ReplyDeleteI believe that it is Societies' duty to provide for the people in poverty around them. I say this because in relation to the video we watched the other day (also in one of the blogs on this very site) the community or "society" was what made them impoverished. If it weren't for societies constant need to be the latest and greatest, many people are pushed under the rug and disregarded. It was societies fault in the first place for creating such a big gap between the Middle class and the people in poverty. Because of this, I myself feel that society should try and give back to those people, by either building some sort of homeless shelter or by donating food and other resources needed to survive.
In the case of giving the person what they needed (such as in this text) I feel like there should be a middle ground of what is permitted to give. I feel that if we catered to what they were used to before they became poor it is not fair to the person providing for them because it is asking a lot from them. I also feel that giving the poor person something that is close to inedible is very unethical. I think that by giving them a meal that is nutritious yet at a reasonable price for the provider.
If i became poor (in this day and age) I honestly would expect a lot and thats due to the world around me. there are such high standards for life in this time and being raised the way i was at the school im at i honestly wouldnt be able to function normally. It would take time to adjust, and eventually i would learn to live with what i could get or already have.
Anna Comment #1
ReplyDeleteI agree with Rabbi Nehemiah's opinion at the end of the text that the man killed himself (as opposed to Rabbi Nehemiah) because he should not have cultivated his luxurious habits to such an extent. If society helped everyone meet their level of luxury that they had before they became poor, this would be impossible because we would not have enough to provide for them. The one individual who was rich but became poor would end up causing financial stress to the rest of the community by trying to give him his previous lifestyle.
In my opinion, especially in modern times, if someone who is rich becomes impoverished, while it is true that this is sad and stressful, they absolutely cannot burden the community by expecting them to raise them to their previous standard of living. If they become poor, they need to first go through the hard times and the times not in luxury if they want to raise themselves back up to being in luxury.
Rivka Cohen comment #5
ReplyDeleteI think that in Judaism, you are supposed to give 10% of your earnings. But why would someone give a pound of meat? Isn't that a title too much to give an entire pound of meat more than once? Why would someone give as much as a pound of meat? Why not just the ten percent like they are supposed to? I think that 10% is a good amount and you should stick with it instead of giving a huge thing of meat.
Molly 'Bonus' Comment #1
ReplyDeleteI happened to agree with Rachel, but disagree with Mia about the last question that has been brought up. Personally, if I were to suddenly become poor, I would not expect a lot because as Rachel said, there must be some reason why I would suddenly be poor. In the world that we live in, you have to work very hard in order to make enough money to provide for yourself because standards have been raised much higher in this day in age. That is why I think this text applies very well to the society that we live in now. I don't exactly understand why this is brought up in this text, because it was written a very long time ago and the standard of living was much lower. I do not think that we are obligated to give the poor what they were accustomed to when they were not poor, because if one day they didn't get the amount of food they needed, they could potentially be in a bad place and their lives could be more difficult. Its like the famous saying, "If you give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. But if you teach a man how to fish, you feed him for life." I think this applies very well to this text because the person who is giving the poor food should be helping them get a job so they can get back on their feet again, not just give them enough food for a day.
The question that came to my mind after reading this text was what about the poor man's family? It says that he comes from a rich family, and it does not specify that the man is an orphan, so why can't he get the help from his family? I think that because it does not specify that he is an orphan, there is no reason why he should be begging for food from strangers, but rather should ask his own family for help. He also should not just be asking for food, but trying to ask where he could find a job so he would be better in the long run.
Natasha Comment #5
ReplyDeleteI think that society must provide for the poor what it has already provided which is food, clothes, and shelter which should be enough to get them back on their feet again. Jobs really aren't that hard to get, a homeless or jobless person can get a job at McDonalds for example. Sure its not an ideal place to work or probably a very nice place to work, but its still a job that you could probably get money from especially because a lot of people eat there. Also you can get a job at a shoe store. Burger King, or a Pet smart, these should be the places to provide jobs for the homeless because there are many of these stores and they don't require a lot of skills. If the few homeless that can get jobs, get them then it could turn around the whole rich to poor ratio. Since there are many families that can get clothes for their families along with food even though some people don't donate these things to charities, again it can be just enough who get these two essential things along with shelter to make a difference in the poor community.
I would want to be provided for with food, shelter, clothes, and money. These are the same things that other people are provided with, also since I love animals I could probably get a job working with animals and get paid to do so. Sure I would want to be treated differently and better then the rest of the homeless and jobless people, I can't convince myself that this could happen. I know full well that it most likely wouldn't happen and that I would not get treated better but I would still get what I needed. Also since I wasn't raised on caviar or anything else just as expensive I'm sure that I could live on a less expensive foods for a while until I could get a job or my parents could get a job.
I think that we should just provide people with what they need, and not what they are accustomed to. Mostly because what they could be used to could be really expensive and the shelter, food, or clothes places might not be able to afford what they want. Especially if everyone found out that the shelter could get them more then what they need the people could become a little greedy and just start to order the shelter around. Soon those very people could be out on the streets which doesn't help anyone, so giving to them just what they need and not giving anyone the special treatment is a better way to go.
It might be hard to get a job when you have no place to shower and your clothes are filthy. Also, a significant number of homeless people are afflicted with mental illness, or struggle with substance abuse. There are many hurdles that a homeless person needs to address before they can even begin the search for a job.
DeleteNatasha Bonus Comment #1
DeleteI understand that there are some people who have substance abuse or mental illness's, but most of the time the person with the mental illness has family to take care of him, friends, religious organizations etc. what I am saying is that there is always someone to help that person. Also there are many safety nets for a person to fall back on, when a person just falls through every way to get help maybe they actually like being the way they are. It seems to me that we might just be applying our standards to them. With the substance abuser when is it time for that person to finally try to help himself, and stop abusing himself? When is it time for him to say that what he is doing is wrong? Also what more can the community do for him when they have already tried their hardest to get him to stop, when can they just say that its his job to get over his own problems? The community always tries to help people like this but sometimes that person just won't accept that help, so when can the community just say well when they are ready to get help for themselves we will help them? And on the issue with smelling filthy and having no clothes there are shelters for that person where they can get help and no longer smell or have filthy clothes. So yes I understand where you are coming from and I understand that there are many hurdles for a homeless person to address, but they will usually be able to address them and will usually be able to help themselves with the devices that we have given them. It seems to me that you are focusing more on those who just won't accept others help, but when will it be time to focus on those who just need a small push from us to get back on their feet?
I wish it were true that the mentally ill had family to care for them. The truth is, the homeless are often society's most damaged- folks with a history of abuse, mental illness, substance abuse, etc. Many times, they might have been getting help from family until they messed it up or just bailed. You are right, though, that family should step up when they can before strangers.
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