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אמר אביי חמשים זוזי פשיטי ממאי מדקתני סיפא אם יש בכיס מפרנסין אותה לפי
כבודה ואמרינן מאי כיס אמר רחבה ארנקי של צדקה ואי סלקא דעתין חמשים זוזי
ממש אם יש בכיס כמה יהבינן לה אלא שמע מינה חמשים זוזי פשיטי
Discuss this text. What are the benefits or problems of using the pshiti zuz for tzedakah to a יתומה ? What are the benefits or problems of using the mamash zuz? Do you agree or disagree with the Talmud? Make sure you understand the text before you comment.
Gabi Comment #2
ReplyDeleteI think that using pshiti zuz instead of mamash zuz is a good idea. There are many orphans that would like to get married, and if the rabbis always provided 50 mamash zuz, there would not be enough money to have a dowry for all the orphans. Also, tzedakah is not just used to give dowries, it also used for other causes. If all the tzedakah money was used on orphans, then there would be none left for other important things. The only problem would be if the husband was not okay with receiving a dowry of 50 pshiti zuz. However, he should know going in to the marriage that he will not get 50 mamash zuz. If the husband is okay with this, then using pshiti zuz instead of mamash zuz is a very good idea.
Molly Comment #2
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gabi, for saying that the pshiti zuz should be used because tzedakah is used for many different occasions, not only for dowries for orphans. However, I think it should also be based on how much the orphan needs to pay to her husband. There are many different levels of orphans and some could need more money than others. So by this text saying that automatically 50 pshiti zuz are given, I disagree because there are many different cases of how much an orphan needs. I also think that within tzedakah, there should be a certain amount of money that can only be used for dowries of orphans, and likewise for other causes. This would allow mamash zuz to be used sometimes if the orphan really needs it.
One question I had when reading this text is how much is a mamash zuz or a pshiti zuz in relation to the money that we use now? I think knowing that fact would allow us to make a better decision of using pshiti or mamash zuz. I know that this was made a long time ago, but I think there should be some commentary on this Talmud showing the relationship. Another question I had was why are there only pshiti zuz, which is worth 1/8 of a mamash zuz and not other types of zuz that are worth a different fraction of a mamash zuz, like 1/4? This would let there be an in between amount, if the husband, like Gabi said, was not okay with the small amount of 50 pshiti zuz. Overall, I do agree with the Talmud but I think that it needs more explanation to show that it does not necessarily apply to very case of an orphan.
Ely Comment #2:
DeleteI did some research, and an answer I came up with for the value of 50 zuz is about $200. This may not seem like a lot for a dowry (especially if that is mamash zuz - I don't know which type of zuz my research refers to - because then 50 pshiti zuz would be only $25!), but keep something else in mind. The article where I found this information (http://www.aish.com/atr/Ketubah_200_Zuz.html) jokingly says that two zuz is worth one goat (according to the haggadah), making 200 zuz worth 100 goats, or in our case, 50 zuz worth 25 goats. However, I would like to take this more seriously than the article does. If this refers to pshiti zuz, then the husband is very lucky...he has received the equivalent of 25 (baby) goats! Not bad! If the article refers to mamash zuz, this makes 50 pshiti zuz equal to about three goats, which isn't as good as 25 goats, but isn't too bad, either.
However, there is the possibility that my research is incorrect. Maybe 50 pshiti zuz is in reality a really tiny amount. So, like Molly says, why shouldn't 50 mamash zuz be given out, at least some of the time? I have three reasons. First of all, we don't know how much money the kis had. It might not have had enough money to give ANYONE 50 zuz mamash. Second, if one orphan was given 50 zuz mamash and another orphan was given 50 zuz pshiti, it wouldn't be very fair. Aren't they all orphans? Don't they all deserve to be treated equally? Finally, if someone who wasn't an orphan saw that fifty mamash zuz was going out to any female orphan who needed a dowry, she could fake being an orphan and take away a huge amount from the kis! Remember, 50 mamash zuz was a large amount of money. On the contrary, 50 pshiti zuz is enough to give an orphan a good enough dowry, but is not that appealing to someone who is already rich. So, to prevent all of this and give orphans a little more money, the kis could give out maybe 100-150 pshiti zuz, rather than just 50. It doesn't take as much out of the kis as 50 mamash zuz (400 pshiti zuz), but it gives the orphans more money than they would get with 50 pshiti zuz, and it also treats all of the orphans equally. All of the orphans get more than 50 pshiti zuz rather than only some of them getting a LOT more.
Liana Brown Comment #2
DeleteAlthough I agree with Gabi and Molly by saying that pshiti zuz should be used because tzedakah is needed in many different situations, I disagree with Molly because I think that the amount given to the orphan should be constant for every orphan. I understand that every woman’s dowry is different, but giving more to one woman and less to another could create a conflict in the community. A husband could ask for more financial support after hearing that another couple received more than what he originally received. A universal amount of tzedakah given to every couple who qualifies for this support would be the right thing for the community. By saying that 50 zuz are given for each dowry, the text shows the need for a constant amount and the importance of being fair.
A question I had about this text regaring Gabi and Mollys comments was if the husband truly wanted to get married, why would he care about the small amount of money being given to him? I do not fully understand the terms of marriage in that time period, and whether or not they were arranged, but a person who wants to get married for the soul reason of sharing their life with someone else, should not only focus on the befits of that marriage and what he gets out of it finically. A man should want to provide for his wife, but should accept what he is being given, and be thankful that he is receiving anything at all.
Adina Comment #1
ReplyDeleteI like the question that Liana raised in her comment and I think she answered it very well. I agree with her that the amount of money being given to the husband shouldn't matter if he truly wants to get married. In my opinion I think that there should be other fractions of a mamash zuz. Every orphan is different and there are different levels of how poor or wealthy the orphans are. Because of this I feel it is necessary for there to be more types of mamash zuz. Like Molly said, why isn't there 1/4 or 1/2 of a mamash zuz? This would be helpful and make a husbands job easier. As long as the husband knows before entering the marriage that he will not get 50 mamash zuz then it is ok. Therefore you could use pshiti zuz and he could still be happy.
#6
ReplyDeleteI agree with Gabi and Molly with the fact that using pshiti zuz is better than using the mamash zuz. I pshiti zuz is worth 1/8 of a mamash zuz. By using the pshiti zuz, many orphans will have the chance to get married and have enough money to pay the 50 zuz dowry. I also agree with Molly when she says that there should be some sort of fund for orphans who want to get married, because there are other important issues in charity that do not only have to do with paying an orphan's dowry. I also think that the father receiving the dowry has to accept the pshiti zuz and not mind that they are not receiving the mamash zuz. If they do not accept, then they cannot et married because you cannot give the mamash zuz to one family and not the other. It has to be consistent. If you were to give the mamash zuz to every family, there would not be enough money for everyone. That's why giving the pshiti zuz is the best way to go.
I agree with Liana in disagreeing with Molly when saying that there should be different a punt of zuz being given to each orphan. I also think that there should be a consistent amount given to each orphan and that even if they have more than other orphans, they should still get the full pshiti zuz amount. This could cause tensions within the families and make others feel bad if they have to receive the full dowry, and if some don't. I believe that being fair is the easiest way to go and giving each family a 50 phshiti zuz, not a mamash zuz, would be the most logical. I believe that every orphan should be married in the fairest way possible, and thanking them feel included, and not an outcast or a charity case is very important as well.