כתובות סז עמוד ב
תנו רבנן אין לו ואינו רוצה להתפרנס, נותנין לו לשום הלואה וחוזרין ונותנין לו לשום מתנה דברי רבי מאיר. וחכמים אומרים נותנין לו לשום מתנה וחוזרין ונותנין לו לשום הלואה. לשום מתנה? הא לא
שקיל! אמר רבא לפתוח לו לשום מתנה. יש לו ואינו רוצה להתפרנס, נותנין לו לשום
מתנה וחוזרין ונפרעין ממנו. חוזרין ונפרעין הימנו תו לא שקיל? אמר רב פפא
לאחר מיתה . ר"ש אומר יש לו ואינו רוצה להתפרנס אין נזקקין לו. אין לו ואינו
רוצה להתפרנס אומרים לו הבא משכון וטול כדי שתזוח דעתו עליו
Ketubot 67b: Our rabbis taught: he doesn't have (he is poor) and he doesn't want to receive Tzedakah, give it to him as a loan and (if he refuses) then come back and offer him a gift, according to R' Meir. The sages say give him a gift and (if he refuses) then come back and give it to him as a loan.
ק - As a gift? But (we already learned) he won't accept it!
ת - Raba said, begin by offer it as a gift.
He has (money; he isn't poor) and he does not want to accept Tzedakah (but clearly he needs it), we give it to him as a gift and then come back to him and make him repay it.
ק - Come back and repay it? How? He won't do it!
ת - Rav Pappa said (we collect) after he dies.
Rabbi Shimon says he has but he won't accept Tzedakah, we don't give it to him.
He doesn't have and he doesn't accept, we say to him 'Give me a pledge/collateral' and we take it (and provide for him) so that he does fall into despair.
Why give a poor person a loan instead of a gift? Can you explain the 'pride' aspect of receiving Tzedakah, and the difficulty of it? Jewish communities all over the world have small 'free loan' societies for local Jews in need. What do you think of this?
What about this rich person who won't spend their money on themself? Can you imagine a situation like this? The gemara gives two answers. What are they? Which do you prefer?
Gabi Comment #6
ReplyDeleteThe text says that if a poor person won't accept tzedakah then you should give it to him as a loan. This way, the poor person won't feel like he is just taking money, instead he will feel the obligation to pay it back. Pride comes in to it because some people don't want to admit that they need tzedakah. By thinking of the money they are receiving as a loan instead of as tzedakah, it lessens the issue of the person's pride.
I think small 'free loan' societies are a good idea. Even if the person can't pay back the loan it doesn't matter because then it will just be considered tzedakah. This seems like another text where the Talmud really takes into consideration the person's feelings, in this case, their pride. The Talmud wants to make sure that people get the help and money they need without getting their feelings hurt or being resentful.
My only question from this text is: If the money was given to a person as a loan, and then they couldn't pay it back, wouldn't it make them feel worse than if the had just accepted the money as tzedakah?
Neat question there at the end. I'd think so- it's why the repayment rate on micro loans is really high; check out kiva.org.
DeleteLiana Brown Comment #3
ReplyDeleteIn our society money is a very difficult topic, and some people have more than others. Those who have more may feel an obligation to give to those in need, but in many situations the people in need don’t want the help from others because it can be embarrassing. It’s hard to believe that there are wealthy people who refuse to spend excessive amounts of money on themselves, but I believe they do exist. There are many people, even in our community, who are modest and humble with their money and only flaunt it to support others. I admire this, and I wish our society wasn't so obsessed with who can give the most, or outbid the other person, but admire the people who give as much as they can. I can imagine that being given tzedakah can be embarrassing, but if it was the only way to support my family, I would take it graciously. I think that people, who are nice enough to give tzedakah, aren't doing it to embarrass the recipient, and it is nothing to be looked down on. I agree with Gabi, and I can see how not being able to pay someone back could be even more embarrassing, but I think in that situation some kind of payment plan could be arranged.
When you are giving Tzedakah it can also be embarrassing to play the role as the giver. If you’re not wealthy but not poor, giving Tzedakah can be filled with all kinds of pressures. You may feel like you’re not giving enough compared to your friends, or other members of a group. It can lessen your pride, even though you may be giving as much as you can. In my opinion, both sides of the situation can be hard, and this is why money is so complicated. People are always going to feel like it’s not enough, or that they don’t want to be given that much, but it’s hard to prevent these situations. But, hopefully the people around them aren’t concerned about how much others are giving, and they aren’t giving their money to embarrass the recipient.
Rachel Comment #6
ReplyDeleteAdressing the first question, I think that giving a loan instead of a gift has a major difference of its impact. I agree with Liana and Gabi on their answers. When you give a poor person a gift, they feel like they have to repay you back, and they feel like they are being pitied, but in reality, they want to be treated like normal human being, not like some poor person. When you give a person a loan, they know that they have to pay you back, and they don't feel as much as a pity on them. In my opinion, gifts are more personal, and loans are more for business. When poor people get gifts, they may feel it is because they are poor and need the money. However, when they get loans, they may feel like they are doing buissness, and it doesn't necessarily imply that they are having money issues. Pride then comes into this, because when people are poor, and they get money from others, their pride is damaged, and they feel embarrassed. Especially in our society, a lot of things revolve around money. How much you have, how much you make, and how much you spend. These three categories often are a source of competition, shame and especially pride. When people admit they are in need of money, their pride gets hurt because they suddenly might move categories, and feel like they are being judged by others. I had almost the same question as Gabi, and after thinking, I found an answer. Even though it might be more embarrassing when you can't pay back the loan, you are still striving to pay it back. When you get a gift, you aren't required to pay someone back, so here, it makes you feel less pitied, because you are given the opportunity to pay them back.
When people do have a lot of money, and they don't spend it on themselves, it is quite admirable. I agree with Liana, because this is hard to believe. As I mentioned above, money is about competition, and people usually spend on it their homes, clothes and paries to show off. However, the few that DO spend money on Tzedekah, and not themselves is amazing. I can definitely imagine a situation like this, and I have an example. Bob Kraft, the owner of the Patriots (WOHOO!), gives a lot of his money to Jewish Organizations like Hillel, and especially to Israel.
Alana Comment #6
DeleteI would have to agree with Gabi, Liana, and Rachel on this topic. This topic in itself is very hard because as humans we want to give to the poor to help them but we also do not want to embarres them by making them feel like they cannot provide for themselves. If we embarres the poor like Rachel said it takes away their sense of pride and may make them feel like they cannot do for themselves what a "normal or rich" person can do.
By giving a poor person a loan you are enabling them to feel more like a person. They feel like they aren't being pitied or looked down upon but rather feel like someone is being generous and putting their money in them because they feel like that person will be able to work and pay back the generosity and money.
I think that while we need to give to the poor and help those who are not as fortunate as us we also cannot make them feel bad about themselves. Although the concept of giving a loan is a good idea I think that if a poor person will not except a loan or a gift that we should leave them alone and let them do as they please. We should not force the poor to take our money because it may ruin the pride that they have built up. I think overall money is a very difficult topic in our society and everyone who has enough should give but we should try our best to not embarres or take away someones pride.
Fun fact- the flag football stadium in Jerusalem is Kraft Field, donated by Bob Kraft. Go Red Sox!
DeleteJason comment #3
ReplyDeleteThis text refers to the fact that it contradicts itself! It says that you try to give tzedukah, and he wont accept it, than try a loan, then a GIFT. A gift could also be considered tzedukah and the solution that was provided was offer it as a gift first. This in my mind makes no difference if he does not want to receive anything. You can also ask, "What would the gift be?" The gift could be a job opportunity. That way, the man has to earn his worth, therefore keeping his pride intact. The issue here is also the fact that if the giver is as poor or a little more wealthy than the receiver, than should he give enough so that they are even in wealth? (i.e. I have $10, another person has 0$. Should I give him $5 dollars so we both have $5 dollars?) A loan is close to being accepted, but a job opportunity would be best.
Rivka Cohen comment #6
ReplyDeleteI think that it could be embarrassing to be considered a charity. That's why someone might not want someone to donate something to them. If someone is consider a charity and needs Tzedaka to be given to them, they could lose their pride and feel extremely awkward around other people who have more money then they do. People aren't respected as much when they need to borrow money from others.
When people have no money, and others consider them a charity fund, the poor person might not want to be looked at like that, so they might consider it a loan that they intend to pay back in time. I know that personally, I would lose respect for myself if I was considered a charity, and people felt pity for me so they would give me things that they no longer want, or that they have to give up.
Some people don't mind having things donated to them, but there are those that feel bad about it. If someone gave me money, I would feel obligated to return the money in time no matter what they tell me. If I don't pay it back, I might feel like I'm steeling from them even though that's not true. I would feel obligated to pay it back, especially if they gave me a large amount of money.
Adina Halzel Comment #3
ReplyDeleteMoney is a very challenging topic to talk about for some and very easy for others. Everyone lives their own lifestyle and has their own ways of making money. Some people are more fortunate than others in this world today and have all the money that they could ever need to live a happy relaxed life. The people that have so much money that they don't even know what to do with it should definitely give Tzedekah or give loans to those in need. Giving Tzedekah should make people feel good about themselves because it is doing a good deed by helping others out. No one should ever feel embarrassed to give Tzedekah or a loan to anyone, but on the other hand it can be very embarrassing at times for people to accept the Tzedekah or loan.
One should give a poor person a loan instead of a gift because it may make the poor person feel guilty for accepting a gift. If you give them a loan then they have the option of paying that person back later on in life when the person finds or earns the money to do so. Most poor people in my opinion don't enjoy accepting gits from others, but if it is the only thing they can receive in order to continue on in with their lives then it is just what they have to do. If I were to put myself in this position of a poor person then I would much rather accept a loan from someone rather then a gift. Even taking the loan would leave me with a feeling of guilt and I would hope that one day I could return the loan to the generous person.
I think it is important to have free loan societies in Jewish communities all over the world. These communities help out many Jews in need today and we need them to continue to succeed so the number of Jews in need will hopefully start to decrease sooner than later.
Zachary Bonus #2
ReplyDeleteThe topic of giving and excepting tzedakah is a very interesting one. I agree with Liana, Gabi and Rachel that some people are more accepting of charity better then others. I think when a person is in need they should not feel embarrassed for the situation that they are in, especially if they tried everything that they could to support their family. Everybody at some point usually goes through a rough phase. My parents talk about how when they first got married, they did not even have enough money to buy meat. They would go two or three times a week to my mothers sister to eat meat meals. Basically, they lived on pasta. This meat could have been viewed as a form of tzedakah. When I ask my parents, weren't they embarrassed? They both smile, laugh and say... "What could we do? We had no money and could not really afford Kosher meat."
My parents have since then been able to make some more money and I know that they give money to charities. Not only that, but when my father's younger sister would come to our house twice a week to eat meat, it was like a full circle. My aunt who just got married and did not have a lot of money would come often and my mother never has a problem cooking for them.
I think people need to realize that there is no shame when you need help and it is okay to get help from others. In addition, if a person is embarrassed to accept charity, I agree that it is better to offer it as a loan then as a gift. A loan means that one day that person will pay back what you have given and it is more business like.
#4
ReplyDeleteAddressing this first question, I believe that it is better to give a loan instead of a gift for many reasons. Giving a loan gives them a sense that they are not just a charity case, and not just accepting money. Giving them a loan is treating them as every other person, and they would accept that and want to pay the money back, rather than just taking the money and keeping it. I agree with Gabi that pride plays a huge role in this situation, and accepting the loan lessons their pride and makes the situation easier.
I also think that a small "free loan" society in a Jewish community is a eat idea. I love the fact that we can co,e together as a community and help those in need. I believe that every religion and society should have one, not only Judaism. Helping others is very important, but not humiliating them in the process is every more important, and the Talmud makes sure that these situations do nothappen.
I agree with Rachel and Liana when thy say that there are people in the world who have excessive amounts of money, but don't spend it on themselves. I think that that is very admirable and generous. Opera, for example, might spend a lot on her self, but she also helps others by building schools for those in need and much more. If I were famous p and had excessive amounts of money, I would do that too.